forceful. in the very same breath saying there wasn't nothing criminal. >> all right, interesting to watch this dynamic going forward. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on a wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. under a biden administration you'd expect this. if you'd notice recently president trump went up in the polls and surpassing joe biden. what do they now? weaponize the doj. time and time again. the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw

what was unfolding. make no mistake those responsible for wednesday's chaos will be brought to justice. what do they do now? weaponize government. go after their number one opponent. the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack. those who are responsible for wednesday's chaos will be brought to justice. well, you wonder who will brought to justice in the republican party. republican party that now, because of kevin mccarthy and others like him, now defend a man, former president, who stole nuclear secrets for the federal government. who stole military secrets from the federal government. who stole top secret classified plans for the federal government. to invade iran.

a house speaker who's perfectly fine, now, with donald trump sitting back after launching a riot to overthrow the federal government. who said that? my gosh, that's so terrible that i would say something like that. kevin mccarthy must think that's the weaponization of federal government. those are kevin mccarthy's own words. you'll remember, too, when kevin mccarthy got on the phone on january 6th and he called over to donald trump. someone now saying weapon -- weaponizing government. kevin mccarny in the middle of donald trump's riots which he started who refuseded to stop, called the white house screaming, telling him to call the rioters off and donald trump said, it's antifa and kevin

mccarthy screamed at him. screamed at him. other members, he told other members about this call. he talked about this call for quite some time. he said you knew exactly who they are. they're your people and donald trump refused. so what happened? kevin mccarthy said they're going to be brought to justice, instead he decides to attack the people that actually are trying to bring to justice a man who's stolen nuclear secrets from the united states government. a man who stole military secrets from the federal government and not return them. because this is how sick and corrupt the republican party in washington, d.c., is, now kevin mccarthy is defending the very man who he said was responsible for these riots. >> what you heard was kevin

mccarthy then and now when it comes to donald trump and the january 6th insurrection at the capitol. new reporting this morning on potential new indictment of the former president. also ahead the big lie has real-life consequences for trump supporters in michigan. with more than a dozen people now facing charges for trying to overturn the 2020 election. >> i mean, they lied. this false electors claim, claiming actual electors and making an oath to it, they're shocked they're going to be brought to justice because they lied about donald trump putting that -- they lied about claiming being electors, they could go to congress. this entire false electors scheme, my god it was shocking when we heard about it, it just shows in america the wheels of

justice may turn slowly but they turn fine they're going after all these who tried to rob americans. >> assaults on the democracy are not being left standing. not only focusing on those who stormed the capitol on january 6th donald trump seemingly about to face charges himself for trying to interfere with that election. for inspiring what happened on january 6th. now in the states, false electors who tried to undo the will of the people. some of these former republican state officials, other just everyday citizens. everyday citizens who bought the lie and pushed the lie and now

will face consequences. >> and again, you look at other states as jonathan said, donald trump was desperate to get people in other states to put themselves up to commit perjury to claim they were actual electors when they weren't. donald trump has put more people in legal jeopardy, you think about all the people right now working-class americans, middle-class americans who went to washington on the january 6th because their president told them that the election was stolen. he knew he was lying. he wanted to stay in power at all cost. all those people now in jail. the question is, are we a land that allowed billionaires to fly around 757 jets, that have golf courses all over the world, are we going to allow them to actually push other people to do

the most unspeakable acts to cops, try to overturn the federal government, trash the united states capitol, the people's house at the center of freedom across the globe, and let them go about their merry way? no man is above the law. donald trump held account for what he did on january 6th just like lindsey graham said he should. like nikki haley said he should. the american soldier who's still in custody this morning in north korea having trying to bolt across the border. israel's president is in washington this morning after meeting with president biden yesterday at the white house, he might want to take a trip down to mar-a-lago, though, before heading home to recover some of

his country's ancient artifacts. we'll explain how they reportedly ended up at trump's country club. >> jonathan, you remember that nazi collector in raiders of the lost ar k, life imitates art. israelis come over, they have some jewish artifacts, places them in the white house, trump steals them. he takes them to mar-a-lago. and he won't give them back. >> yeah, it's not like donald trump has any history at all hanging on to things he shouldn't have and bringing them to his palm beach resort, maybe this is the plot for the new indiana jones movie. israeli officials for a ceremony at the white house scheduled for

2019 brought over ancient artifacts, they were at the white house, never actually displayed because there were some concern they may have come from the west bank, kept at the white house, pandemic hits, they got boxed. eventually were supposed to be returned to the israeli government, they weren't. they end up at mar-a-lago, unclear how, and now a number of senior israeli officials have petitioned trump's team to get them back and have been refused. as donald trump has hung on to these ancient artifacts. >> they want -- the trump team want americans to believe that he doesn't take stuff that isn't his. the people at the capitol carrying trump flags and wearing trump hats had nothing to do

with trump as to why they were there. we sit here and watch it, it's almost ludicrous what's happening. it appears the wheels of justice are turning. >> again, working class americans, middle class americans who follow donald trump they're sitting in jail now with their lives. >> shattered. >> pretty shattered because of donald trump. >> destroyed. >> because of donald trump. he's still wandering around the world in 57. stealing artifacts. >> elise jordan and michael steele and joyce vance and jackie are all with us this morning. new developments in the story that broke while we were on the air yesterday morning. two sources confirm to nbc news

that former president donald trump received a letter from special counsel jack smith this week informing him that he's the target of a federal investigation into efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election. those efforts include but not limited to the january 6th attack on the united states capitol. although a target letter doesn't definitively mean that a person will be charged in most cases it's a precursor to an indictment. >> joyce vance tells us why this is so significant. >> well, it's particularly significant in this case, joe, it's correct that in a normal situation when prosecutors send out a target letter it means they anticipate that they're about to charge that individual. in a high-profile matter like this you can be certain that jack smith thoroughly considered what evidence he had, what his charging decisions were going to

look like before he issued this letter. this guarantees to almost a moral certainty that jack smith will charge donald trump. what we'll see next will be the typical process where lawyers will try to engage, it's unlikely that they'll permit trump to testify in front of the grand jury if there's any way to restrain him from doing that but lawyers will want to have a conversations at lawyers at justice and appeal their decision to indictment to merrick garland. that's what the next week or so will look like. then we'll see an indictment. >> joyce, any more details you can provide given what you know, but in terms what the charges may be pertaining specifically. >> there's been reporting what was in target letter. even if we have the opportunity to see that letter, expect the

details to be pretty sparse, prosecutors typically will say we're considering indicting you on charges involving -- and then they'll list a couple of topics. the charges may include some form of a conspiracy, charges involving violation of rights and obstruction of justice. but the reality is that the under the federal principles of prosecution, prosecutors are supposed to charge the readily most provable crimes. jack smith will have to be strategic about bringing charges that he believes he can get in front of a jury without undue delay. >> what do you expect to hear for the target letter in. >> joe, we actually have yet to confirm what exactly what was in that target letter. about some of the more specific

charges and statutes that are listed. we do know according to our reporting with my colleagues, that there are multiple charges listed. but, again, the exacts of what those span are still a bit murky. we do know that one of them most likely included the conspiracy to defraud is a charge that has been widely discussed, it's something that in 2022 that a federal judge that former president trump and john eastman were guilty of committing. the rest is tbd. to piggyback off of what joyce just said, essentially this target letter indicates to us that an indictment could be coming soon. the last time around, ten 20

days between when the target letter was delivered to former president's lawyers to when he received that indictment. we're sort of looking at that time frame. it's clear that jack smith is picking up the pace here, we're told that his investigators are still actively interviewing other witnesses, they're knee-deep in this investigation. for smith to roll this out at this time is a bit unusual and suggests maybe he's right to get ahead of some other potential indictments coming. the last question we're asking, who else has received a target letter? who else might be receiving a target letter? this is a broad investigation. several other key players involved with trump's efforts to overturn the results of the 2020

election. >> michael steele, we both have run for office, both have been elected as republican politicians. surrounded by republican politicians. maybe they're not all saints, maybe a hot of sinners here. looking at a guy who was saying donald trump was responsible for cops getting beaten, the chaos on january 6th, responsible for riots, attempted to overthrow the united states government, responsible for the trashing of the united states capitol for animals going in and smearing extremendous mitt over the capitol. that same kevin mccarthy now coming out and saying that it's the justice department's fault. he said after january the 6th these people, donald trump,

these people must be brought to justice. now that the justice department has somebody who's trying to bring them to justice, they are actually attacking law enforcement. like i said, we both served. but i must say i never met anyone like that. have we gotten to the bot tom the barrel it's so bad you have somebody who knows and admitted on the house floor donald trump was responsible for those riots, responsible for right to overthrow the federal government on january 6th. but for now is trying to blame. it's like the sheriff coming to town to clean things up. >> there are far more sinners than saints in this iteration of the republican party. we know that well. we watched people that we worked with, that we, you know, in the

field of politics with side by side, become other worldly in their view of situations like this. the thing that's the most interesting for me is the transformation. in the past, our elected officials in a serious matter like this, watergate comes to mind, where they would not elevate the politics over the rule of law, the pursuit of justice, doing the right thing, as our mamas used to tell us, right, today this iteration of maga republicanism is all about elevating the politics over all else, making everything subject to it. because at the tip of that sphere is trump and trumpism. and so that's what's used to

pierce the veil of justice, take off that blindfold. as we saw with the judge cannon in the first trump matter before her. trying to sort of game the system politically. or game the system because of your political interests. that's far removed from what you and i remember, certainly when you came into congress in '94 it wasn't about elevating the politics it was about elevating the policy. so even when you look at these issues from the justice and crime and criminal behavior, to policies in the house and in the senate, the politics is what animates the narrative now and there are no objective players, there's no one who's sitting back looking to call the balls and the strikes.

everyone from kevin mccarthy on down has their finger on the scale to tip it toward donald trump. >> it's all about power. i mean, it's all about trying to get as close to power as possible. and you know, we came in '94. lot of positions we took that a lot of people didn't like. many of them were very popular in the polls. after four years we had a leader wasn't adhering to what he did. it was like you said, it was about the policies. i remember to saying to newt, if my own mother was running this place like you were running i would vote to send her home. she'd have to deal with it. this wasn't personal.

it was about what we promised we were going to do. this is foreign, elise, we have a republican party, we knew it was corrupt. john meachem said we knew how bad things were. so elise. we now have republicans who are attacking the justice department because they tried to get nuclear secrets that were stolen back in the white house. they were trying to get military plans, secret military plans to invade iran, that were stolen back in the white house. kevin mccarthy and these republicans, these house republicans are attacking the justice department and the fbi. for trying to get top secret

military classified documents back in the white house. and now they are trying to defend donald trump and they are attacking the justice department. and the fbi. for doing what kevin mccarthy told them they needed to do was to bring the prep pray or thes not bring to mar-a-lago to get a picture taken, smiling like kevin mccarthy did, but to bring them to justice and he said on the house floor, we've got the tape that donald trump was responsible. >> joe, when you're attacking the refs you're losing the game. if that's the best argument that republicans have right now, and frankly it's the only argument

they have right now, given how many charges have piled up against donald trump and how much evidence that's out there in the open to see, not only for january 6th, the charges in georgia, where there are recorded phone calls that are so damming for donald trump in his defense of election malpractice down there. they're blaming the refs because that's the position that donald trump has led them in. this is a ticking time bomb for the republican party. maybe donald trump will skirt justice like he's had in the past. he'll be able to run for president as the republican nominee, but he can blow up any day given all of the legal problems that are swirling around him and that's the huge, huge risk that the party is taking by going forward with him as the likely nominee.

>> again, they're choosing to defend again, they're choosing to defend a guy who stole nuclear secrets, who stole military secrets, who stole plans to invade iran in case we needed to invade iran, they're defended a guy they blamed afterwards for the riots on the january 6th. they don't have to do that. they can actually select somebody who can win. but for some reason they won't do it. it's just crazy. >> jonathan, you wrote the book on january 6th. put all the pieces together. >> it was a historic day of offense across baseball.

red sox got shut out. >> but, jonathan n our defense, we were shut out against one of the worst teams in modern day baseball history. >> going big picture here, this isn't the culmination plenty of chapters still to go, this is the bi-product of the big lie, the glass half-full look. it held in november of 2020. it held some republican state officials, some judges did the . even some members of trump administration took them to the 11th hour but they did the right thing. though january 6th, 2021, darkest days in history, commit

to violence in his name. electors in michigan. now potentially trump himself and the people around him. him being held accountable for months and months of lies that threatened our democracy like never before. as we discussed yesterday as the news broke, maybe in some ways this will be the hardest case to prosecute, the hardest one to deliver a guilty verdict, but it's also the most important one, the man should be charged for what he did. >> yeah, consequential and you mentioned michigan, coming up, we'll talk with joyce vance about the felony charges against fake electors in michigan. also the latest in the mar-a-lago documents case. also ahead on "morning joe," what we're learning this morning about a u.s. soldier detained in north korea. plus with his poll numbers

lagging ron desantis returns to mainstream media to defend his 2024 presidential campaign. also ahead, president biden out with a new campaign ad featuring an unlikely spokesperson. they didn't have to do any editing. they just played what she had to say. and later this morning, nancy pelosi is our guest on "morning joe." we'll be right back. right back. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son?

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as michigan's top law enforcement officer i'm obligated to hold bad actors accountable when such violations occur. fair and free elections are the foundation of our system of government. one of the most importants principles in our democracy. people should have confidence in our election system and a belief their vote counts. our democracy must be defended by every generation of americans. >> you know, this has to be really kind of confuse and disconcerting for these trumpists that you have elected leaders. >> right. >> who don't let you lie about being electors. to the united states congress, for the purposes of actually representing the state of michigan and who they actually voted for. and so, again, these are basic

things. what we'll look back on years from now, we've been talking for a year now, maybe nine months, about how gravity is returning, all the things we thought like no longer mattered in this country did matter, gravity is returning, a lot of people are going to look back after trump is gone, years from now, and just say, how did these people -- how did they think they were going to get away with that? what was going on between 2015 and 2021 that made these people think they could act like thugs, beat the hell out of cops, try to overthrow the federal government, lied repeatedly, be part of this scheme because they wanted to close to a former reality tv host, who had lost

election after election after election. why did they do it? we still don't have that answer. >> those questions sound like a farce but i think that's going to be a really important discussion. as to how we got here and what were the different factors involved over the course of decades. >> and these people, these people who knew better, who knew they were breaking the law, who knew they were lying and trying to undermine democracy, not some generalized concept, but democracy in their own state, trying to undermine the will of the people who had just voted pretty comfortably in michigan by the way, not as close as the race was before, but voted for joe biden. instead of donald trump. you had people who actually plotted and schemed to take away

the popular vote like they were in turkey or russia or in saddam hussein's iran. just crazy. >> that was michigan attorney general dana nessel announcing felony charges for false electors. they signed multiple certificates claiming they were michigan's dually elected electors. some of the electors tried to deliver the documents to the state senate but were turned away. each of the defendants face several forgery charges. that could result in multiyear jail sentences. the 16 people include a state republican national committee chairwoman as well as a former state republican party co-chair.

unbelievable. >> it really is. joyce vance, again, gravity returns, people -- again, you wonder what people were thinking at the time, you know, we're going to lie about being electors. donald trump has this keystone cop plan for fake electors which is going to end up snagging a lot of people not only the state level but the federal level. what is going to be the outcome for these people? >> so, attorney general nessel i think said words that will resonate throughout this historical conversation, this question of, how did the fever dream last for so long? she said democracy has to be defended. she's put down her markers that she intends to be a part of that

process. she's starting at the bottom of this particular food chain, not the entire food chain in district of columbia. michigan, people who tried to overturn the outcome of the election. something like close to 155,000 more votes for joe biden than donald trump. you have folks engage in a clear scheme of forgery and election crimes. she said i have to prosecute this case because i prosecute forgery every day and i prosecute people who try to fraudulently obtain absentee ballots. these were people who understood

what they were doing, who knew what was going on, asked to conduct themselves with great secrecy to conceal what they were about and who ultimately were living in the same environment watching lawsuit after lawsuit be dismissed in courts, who said there was no fraud that tainted this election. these folks, these are what prosecutors could call righteous targets for prosecution. >> we should not overlook another major development from south florida in the classified documents case, about the timing of that potential trial, trump's team has argued to say we shouldn't have this trial until after the election, they raised the point, well, because there are so many other matters including this january 6th investigation that's going to be difficult to schedule one, we know that jack smith is saying we want it to begin at the end

of the year. the judge didn't give us a definitive ruling. how have you read the tea leaves there? >> so from what we learned in the hearing the judge was a little bit -- she didn't seem to incline to go with prosecutors' proposed schedule of a trial in december saying that would be out of line with other cases. but at the same token she didn't persuaded by trump's argument that this case shouldn't be tried until after the election. she's taking the issue under advisement, she'll issue her ruling in a couple of days. sets a schedule that will guarantee justice can be done here. >> joyce, what do you think that

date should be? in line with other cases, which the judge said she's trying to do. >> right, so, classified documents cases for all of the obvious reasons that we can all readily understand a little bit more more difficult to do than a regular case, those documents will have to stay in here. motions normally write will have to be written there. all of that is important defendants are entitled to due process rights. what the judge seemed tempted to the delays encountered with the more complicated cases, cases that have slower schedules, more deliberate schedules because they're complex. prosecutors say, look, judge,

it's possible that we have a classified documents case but where we don't have to treat it like a complex case, because the government has done something really extraordinary that we haven't talked about enough, instead of producing it on a rollout, the government put together the nonclassified discovery and they gave them a road map on how to review it. that's unusual. it saves defendants a lot of time. it gives them a real leg up and it looks like we'll see the same thing with classified discovery, prosecutors are serious about getting this case done quickly. >> former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you as always for coming on this morning. amid of all of this, jackie, what are you watching for moving forward. >> yeah, mika, again, we're on high alert for when this indictment potentially comes

down, this would be former president donald trump's third indictment related to the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol and exactly what those charges are we have yet to see the target letter that includes some of the sta tuts. we're looking for more target letters potentially sent to more people. we have been lied to by these lawyers in the past. other key players like former white house chief of staff mark meadows has been quiet and staying out of the limelight, has he received a target letter? he has gone before several grand juries related to several of these criminal investigations from the mar-a-lago documents case to the fulton county

investigation. is he cooperating? or is she someone who's potentially anticipating a target letter? lastly, we're looking at the order of all of these simultaneous criminal investigations going on. a lot of these states ended up conducting their own criminal investigations because they doubtd that the justice department would move along with charges related to january 6th. what is going to come first, indictment from jack smith or fani willis going to get out in front of it as we're expecting some sort of decision with regards to her investigation in fulton county next month. >> joe, mika, one of the interesting aspects of all of this, when you look at joyce's analysis and jackie's reporting, is that the tension that we're seeing play out, you've got to

joe's opening point about the wheels of justice, finding that groove and grinding through this process. while at the same time, you have political actors that are trying to exempt the politics from those -- from that legal process. elevating the politics above the legal process. making trump the greatest citizen who's untouchable, giving credence to his pronouncements and his rants, while at the same time, leaving on the side of the road everyday citizens because they're fodder, they're part of the distraction, but what justice says, nope, we're pulling it all together, we're going to show you mr. trump while you think these folks are just you know pieces that can be jettysonned there

are important pieces that lead to your conviction. >> the washington post -- coming up on "morning joe," smart, brilliant and perfect. those are the words donald trump used last night to describe the rule of chinese president xi jinping. we'll show you that fresh praise for the chinese leader. leader subway's now slicing their meats fresh. that's why subway's proffered by this champ. and this future champ. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too.

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president xi, central casting, brilliant guy.

he runs 1.4 billion people with an iron fist. smart, brilliant, everything perfect. nobody in hollywood like this guy. i got them to pay us $28 billion because they screwed our farmers for years. >> you know, the thing is -- >> i don't know where to begin. >> he calls xi brilliant. >> perfect. >> smart. perfect. is this is a guy who has again clamped down, he's a tyrant. donald trump is calling him smart? again, we've talked about this before, republicans used to believe that in individual libts and prix domestics. donald trump and we saw in "the new york times" praises authoritarians. he loves the most brutal dictators in the world, whether it's north korea, russia or in china.

all of these people, joe biden is so soft on china, no he's called xi a tyrant and you look at our military expansion around china, it's been -- it's been pretty awesome to be honest with you. but brilliant, smart, perfect, is what he said about president xi. this is also the same donald trump who during covid said, that the united states on behalf of the people of the united states he wants to thank president xi for his openness. for his openness and full cooperation with the people of the united states. it's just bizarre. let's bring in richard haas. again, you don't have to dig too deep to find one tyrant on the globe after another tyrant on the globe that donald trump has praised and as we all remember, always sort of a nightmare

during those nato meetings and during the g20 meetings where he would constantly be attacking leaders from democratic countries. but also praising the tyrants. >> he seemed kind of envious when he equated brilliance with ruling china with an iron fist. that seems to be his approach. lot of flaws right now, the demographics of china are bleak, it's shrinking and getting much, much older. the economy, the economic growth has really plummeted in that country. all sort of financial bubbles that could pop. as joe pointed out several times the principal effect of chinese foreign policy seems to have galvanized a regional response against china. you have these formal and

informal groupings that are weary about the extension of chinese power. he's created a lot of headwinds for himself. >> richard, moving along a little bit, private second-class travis king crossed over into the boundary voluntary into north korea, how do you see proceedings to bring him home? >> it will be interesting. if you're if north korea, if they want to show that quote/unquote, they can be reasonable, lead to some talks that will reduce sanctions they'll be forthcoming, if they want to continue to up the tension, put tension on through missile tests, they're going to play hardball. this is a decision-making system

of one. i think it's going to tell us where the knot koreans are tactically and this young guy is caught up in something much bigger than himself. the ongoing conflict between russia and ukraine, unity struck by joe biden, the alliance going, the president acknowledged that president zelenskyy told him that the counteroffensive has been a real, real slog and no momentum for any sort of negotiated settlement any time soon and russia bailing out of the grain deal that could have far-reaching consequences. >> this counteroffensive is countering, it's churned up, a

lot of ukrainian equipment, caused a lot of casualties. right now the counteroffensive can't be sustained at this level of intensity and the cluster munitions and the aircraft aren't going to transform that. the russiaens are pushing back. we'll see how disruptive that can be. the bigger story this is going to go on. i see zero reason to believe that either side is ripe or ready for negotiations. i think ukrainians haven't come to the conclusion that they can't liberate their land. they're playing for time, russia, to see whether the west fades. i don't think you're going to see serious negotiations until early 2025. my guess no matter how much diplomatic effort is i don't see a big payoff for another 18

months. the second fighting season has to end and then a third fighting season. >> i mean, again, if you're vladimir putin you're sitting this hoping like donald trump is hoping he can avoid prison by winning the election in 2024, putin is hoping he can take over another country. >> it's now called the open. somewhere in our collective youth, it was called the british open and now it's just called the open. >> i was saying across the pond they refer to it as the open, as

in the premier event. we're americans, though, let's talk about the british open, and i must say, i love the masters, it's so exciting, but there's something wonderful about the british open especially when the winds are blowing about 45 hiels an hour and there's rain and everything's going sideways. what are you looking forward to this weekend. >> rory mcilroy won the genesis scottish open. you see jon rahm and others, this course. two things, it's 15, 20 years tiger woods won there, the entire course was brown, there was a drought, this year the entire krours is thick, lush green and the difference is interesting. the rough is much thicker. a much tougher course.

joe, the bunkers around the greens, the fairway, you don't want to get into one of those. they are the narrowest deepest bunkers i have seen in my life. on twitter, there was thinking someone took six strokes to get out of a bunker that's a bad afternoon. >> richard speaks as a man who spent some time in the bunker. >> president emeritus. richard haas, thank you. hunter biden is the subject of another committee meeting on capitol hill today with two irs whistleblowers set to testify. we'll be joined by two democratic lawmakers who will be in the room for that. also ahead a reminder what donald trump's advisers were trying to do in the days before

the rye yet at the capitol as the former president appears to go on track for a second federal indictment. that would be three indictments overall. that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

we were invited by the president of the united states. >> he personally asked us to come to d.c. that day and i thought for everything he's done

for us, if this is the only thing he's going ask of me i'll do it. >> basically, you know, the president, you know, got everyone riled up, told everyone head on down, we followed what he said. >> saying something to the effect, mark, we need to do something more, they're literally for the vice president to be -- hung. you heard of that, he thinks mike deserves it they don't think they're doing anything wrong. >> i just want to say congress has certified the results without saying the election is over. okay. >> when you wrote it several times about the nonviolence. you wrote suggested it several times monday and tuesday he refused. tell us what happened. >> sure, i didn't speak to the president about this directly

but i communicated to people that it was my view that it was important that the president put out a message before the event. what his response? he made the same, you know, recommendation directly to the president. and that he had refused. >> just so i understand, mr. hishs chman said he recommended to the president convey a message that people should be peaceful on january 6th and the president refused to do that in. >> yes. with donald trump possibly days away from a federal indictment tied to the january 6th efforts to overturn the 2020 election, we wanted to take a look back at what people close to the former president had to say about it and those who testified they were following

his orders. jonathan lemire, elise jordan and michael steele is still with us. and we have jeh johnson joins us. anthony cooley, the top spokesman at the department of justice under attorney general merrick garland. >> so, jonathan lemire, we're hearing talk about things, you wrote a book about the leadup to january 6th. all the people around donald trump before january the 6th and on january the 6th telling him to stop the riots, to call his people away, to call them off, and as we heard from cassidy hutchinson even in the middle of the riots calling for the hanging of mike pence, mark meadows said he couldn't do anything because donald trump

agreed with the crowd. and believed that mike pence basically deserved hanging. they were doing nothing wrong. talk about that and talk about how, again, for people like kevin mccarthy who's trying to defend donald trump after attacking donald trump. how donald trump was almost alone in the white house and agreeing with the rioters that everyone else was coming down on him saying, call this off, from his children to his lawyers, to all of his staff members. >> joe, this of course began on election day that's when the big lie donald trump took to the american people, he had been sowing the seeds of that for months and months that the election would be rigged and unfair, stirring the anger among his supporters. then we had weeks worth after

the election where he claimed he won, he was given space to do by the republican party. complicit in the big lie and he surrounded himself with true believers. bill barr and others finally at the 11th hour decided to abandon him because they wouldn't go along with the lie. all who were left were the enablers. with donald trump's tweet that january 6th would be wild, a crowd gathered there. he retreated to the white house, the vice president of the united states whose life was in jeopardy said this needs to stop. these people need to leave the capitol and donald trump did nothing. he retreated to the private

study off the oval office, watched on television, cheered along and had to be goaded hours later to put out a tweet asking people to go home and at that point dozens of people were injured and some people lost their lives that day. >> so, two sources have confirmed to nbc news that the former president received a letter from special counsel jack smith this week informing him that he's the target of a federal investigation into efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election, a target letter doesn't definitively mean a person will be charged. but in most cases it's a precursor to an indictment. so jeh, johnson, big picture, this is clearly looks like it's officially happening in some way, shape or form. we'll have to see exactly what an indictment looks like, but

talk about the challenges of connecting trump to this crime, or this riot, or what happened at the capitol, it's shocking to hear in the january 6th testimony, the way he behaved that day, throwing food against the wall, whatever, lurching at swn's neck and talking about potentially, you know, not wanting to say anything about tamping down the violence, but linking him to the crime, would that be more charging in. >> good question, mika. good morning. in the sense the answer is no, because what donald trump said to incite this insurrection is a public speech. he's on the record and witnesses who testified before the congressional committee, who were around him on january 6th are also now on the record. i think the challenges here are

two. one, we're hearing that yak smith is contemplating a charge of conspiracy to defraud. which is relatively amorphous white collar skriem, it's the national interest to charge the way january 6th happened. the very definition of an insurrection. the insurrection, inciting an insurrection, giving aid and comfort to an insurrection is also a criminal offense. it's important for the department of justice to call this what it is. second, i also believe that the credibility of our justice system is very much on the line. the doj is methodically prosecuting those who were on the ground, at the capitol on january 6th. some are being sentenced to prison terms of years, what about the man who incited this

insurrection? what about donald trump, the man who lit the match and then threw it on top of it -- the man who sat in the private dining room off the oval office get a pass? while senior level proud boys, oath keepers, do they all go to jail but donald trump the man who incited this insurrection gets a pass? in a sense the criminal justice system is very much the credibility of the system is at stake here. >> anthony, i'm going to follow up on that, we can tap your expertise as a former doj spokesman, now you're on the outside, you can really tell us what's happening, why has it been so slow when it comes to any action being taken with donald trump? >> so, nbc's lester holt asked the attorney general this exact question last july, i was the

top spokesperson at the time. the attorney general spoke to that with a level of conviction that i have rarely seen and he told us lester holt then that everyone, anyone who's criminally responsible for the events surrounding january 6th would be held accountable. i almost get chills now thinking about it, because i rarely seen him speak with as conviction. my mother on the other hand had the exact same question as you. i'm from rural north carolina. i went home last summer and she asked me, boy, i wish your man would go ahead and do what he needed to do. after that interview she called me up and said he's like a quiet storm. now we're seeing the fruit

before jack smith was appointed. >> by the way, two graduates of -- morehouse college here. >> thank you both for that. we should give credit to the house committee on january 6th which brought a lot of this to the forefront. michael steele, this is the legal implications are so important. let's talk politics, too. not just donald trump is a former president, potentially facing another federal indictment he's the leading republican candidate for president now facing another federal indictment. weigh in on the politics of this. not surprisely yesterday we heard from chris christie and asa hutchinson who are willing to go after him. the others far more muted.

saying the fault here lies with the doj and not trump. how do you see this playing out in the future? anything going to change in the gop race in. >> i'm working off data points that are closer to the ground. donald trump didn't lose by a million votes, he lost by 78,000 in the electoral college, that's the election. he picked up in terms of popular votes 7 million votes than he got in '16, he's the leading candidate for the nomination, he's the nominee. of the republican party. until someone takes it from him. late august they'll have a debate, donald trump won't be on the stage, he'll have counter

programming which will garner more support than those standing on that stage. so the direction of this narrative is in one direction. we need to get our heads out of looking at this as a conventional race, it is not. it's never been a conventional race and it won't be a conventional race, we're playing chess here with donald trump. we're fixated on the legal stuff rightly so and all of the smart people who need to do that but at the end of the day what's going to rule theout come isn't what a court does but what the court of public opinion decides. that court of public espn on a razor's edge when it comes to donald trump. don't underestimate that. we're already behind where we should be in setting the narrative to keep this man from regaining power in this country. there are maga heads who run

election boards. who are controlling political operations on the ground in state parties. they're infiltrated in places you don't think they are. we're focused on the fact -- when donald trump calls for people to show up to defend him when these charges and no one shows up, that's not a problem for them. they figured it out. they don't need to expose themselves the way they would have in the past. putting a dot on their forehead for federal officials for the deep state to identify them. so we need to be smarter tactically and politically going into this thing. the legal folks are going to do what they need to do but i'm telling you the typical trump voter don't give a damn about what any lawyer says about him. >> so, and to your point, i

mean, republican candidates even, trump supporters for sure, michael steele, will believe what he says about january 6th. or in the case of ron desantis yesterday, will not take a strong stance against an insurrection, a violent insurrection. and will not look at it for what it is. there's some fear of trump at play here. take a look. >> this's a difference between being brought up on criminal charges and doing things. for example, i think it was shown how he was in the white house and didn't do anything while things were going on, he should have come out more forcefully of course that. but to try to criminalize that, that's a different issue entirely and i think we want to be in a situation where, you know, you don't have one side just constantly right to put the other side in jail. and that unfortunately is what

we're seeing now. >> oh, my god -- trying to put the other side in jail. i mean, kevin mccarthy said he needed to be brought to justice. lindsey graham said i'm off this train. other republicans understood in real time that donald trump could have ended it. ivanka trump said he could have ended this. we could show one clip after another clip after another clip of republicans who worked for donald trump, who were actually the ones who are going to be ging evidence against donald trump and ron desantis almost embarrassed to bring up the fact that donald trump led an insurrection against the united states government and he wants to take the crown off of trump.

>> joe, this is the same guy who got punked by mickey mouse. what is he going to do up against donald trump in seriously. when you can't call the thing what it is in front of you when you can't acknowledge what everyone else acknowledged. you're going to sit here and say, well, he probably should have been a little bit more forceful. this is -- this goes to what i was just saying, there's no will, there's no will inside maga republicanism to do anything that resets the narrative away from trump. there's no will for that and there's no individual who can do that. at all. we need to stop pretending it's acting like, they're going to come over the mountain and they're going to deliver us from

dc dx. no, they ain't. >> i mean, elise, they're all just so scared of their shadows. you go back and look at several of these candidates, their quotes where they're critical of donald trump, they go back on it, nikki haley comes to mind, the interview where she said enough, it was a mistake. couple days later, donald trump gets mad, she changes her position. i'll say right now the only one who's consistently going after donald trump is chris christie and he's attacking him pretty hard and he's going to be the prosecutor against donald trump. but here you have ron desantis yesterday, ron desantis looked embarrassed that he was actually calling out a fascist for trying to overthrow the federal government. >> joe, can you imagine running for a race and you have an opponent who's been indicted

multiple times and you don't use that at all on your campaign when you're stumping to attack the opponent? it's pretty incredible that trump has managed to turn this into an us versus them, that's his message, if they can do it to me they can do it to you. that's really resonated with his supporters. i think what chris christie is doing great, he's doing a service for other republicans, he's doing the work they don't want to do in putting themselves up against trump because there's no one who's willing to attack him other than really chris christie and asa hutchinson has said that january 6th should be

disqualifying. >> it's crazy, anthony, if you agree with jeh that it's critically important that they call what donald trump did by its name, an insurrection, instead of going for the easier charges that may be easier to get a conviction on? the guy was part of a con spoirsy to commit sedition against the united states government. a lot of people are in yale because of that. >> one important thing to note here is that we only know as a public a fraction of -- we only have a fraction of the information that the doj has and let's remember last july this time none of us even knew that there was a whole documents investigation, there's a lot here that we don't know. i'd like to zoom out for a second, the most troubling thing i have seen in recent weeks is

this whole notion that doj has been weaponized against donald trump. and here's what i know based on my two years there, i saw the attorney general put in place people and processes to make sure that the rule of law treating like casesike is reinfused throughout every aspect of the department. how does that play out in practice? you see -- this is how i would argue, this is how we got jack smith, he's a political independent, he's a part of doj career workforce, and importantly, jack smith isn't subject to the day-to-day supervision of anybody at the justice department, not garland, not heads of the national security division. this entire notion that this is biden's justice department going after trump nothing could be further from the truth.

>> certainly, that's the talking point from the republicans right now. claiming the department of justice is weaponized. it's biden's doj covering up. no evidence of that whatsoever. >> secretary, you wanted to get in on this the response you've seen from republicans. so many repeating that talking point that the doj is to blame and defending donald trump. >> it's hard to watch ron desantis, the harvard and yale graduate, go soft on crime and have sympathy for federal criminal defendants. the other point here is that, look, we've got to get our head

around the fact that you've got the leading candidate for president on the republican side, who's defended in three or four cases, how is that going work? if you got somebody who's trying to campaign and at the same time is going to pretrial conferences in four different cases. if i'm the average voter, how can i hire this guy? >> four criminal cases potentially and a defamation suit, i mean, it's endless. former secretary of homeland security jeh johnson and legal affairs analyst anthony cooley, thank you very much. >> a fifth. they could add new jersey. >> new jersey. wow. >> the over/under the

indictments of 2.5 i thought would be a good number. we're already passd that. >> we're headed toward three. still ahead, hunter biden the subject of another republican-led hearing on capitol hill today. whistleblowers claiming the justice department interfered with an invest fwags into the president's son -- are set to testify before the house oversight committee. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. back. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day.

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all right, live look at atlanta this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." 28 past the hour. at least one prominent associate of former president donald trump's 2020 campaign is telling republican lawmakers to give up their investigations into president biden and his family. lev parnas, the ukrainian businessman who worked with rudy giuliani to try to pressure ukraine into investigating biden in 2020 is calling the probe a, quote, wild goose chase. parnas warns that the investigation, quote, has been proven false many times over by a wide array of respected sources. in the house oversight committee james comer slammed the media and the left saying they were ignoring, quote, independent facts about the bidens. a spokesperson for giuliani

didn't respond to a request for comment. set to hold a hearing on djo's biden investigation. back in may, they told lawmakers on the ways and means committee that think more charges should have brought up against the president's son. the department slow-walked its investigation and allowed the statute of limitations to run out. hunter biden, you may remember reached a deal with prosecutors last month to plead guilty to misdemeanor tax crimes stemming from 2017 and 2018, he also faces a gun charge. joining us now is democratic members of the house oversight committee. congressman dan goldman of new york and congressman jacob

moskovitz. dan, what can we expect from the hearing today, what evidence will be presented in. >> we have two quote/unquote whistleblowers who will testify effectively they wanted to charge more crimes against hunter biden and ultimately what the trump-appointed what the u.s. attorney did. i was a federal prosecutor for ten years. i never met an agent who didn't want to charge every suspect with every crime. but there's an important reason why prosecutors make those decisions, is that it's the prosecutor who has to prove the case at trial. who has to admit evidence, who has to understand the potential defenses and make the decision whether or not they can actually prove it. and so ultimately we have these whistleblowers who don't know all of the defenses, don't

anticipate and can't anticipate what it would look like in court and they're argue without any evidence at all, nothing direct, no statement that this was somehow a political decision to charge ultimately hunter biden with what he did. there's no basis for that. what we'll show today from their own testimony that there's nothing that they cite not only that impugns the trump-appointed u.s. attorney but also they don't understand the system. they don't understand the difference between a special counsel and a special attorney. and so when they claim that, that u.s. attorney weiss was denied special counsel status they don't understand what they're saying. so i think the credibility of the allegations as to any kind of political slanting of this

investigation will crumble on our questioning. >> congressman moskovitz, do you agree, not fair to raise questions about hunter biden especially in his tax deals in. >> we're not here to defend hunter biden, he's just taking a plea deal on both the tax issue and on the gun issue. you know, in addition to what dan just said, these are folks, republicans on the oversight committee, their last whistleblower has been indicted. for being a chinese foreign agent. the same people that every time there was a whistle blower during the trump administration they demeaned that whistleblower saying they were a liar, demeaned our institutions. now they want to come guard like none of that ever happened and

listen, what i expect to hear in this hearing is a lot of partisan politics. because that's what this is about. this is about trying to hurt joe biden's numbers and trying to help donald trump. this isn't about the truth nor hunter, it's all about polling. they test the polling and see if the message is working, this entire thing in oversight this year has been a circus, they're just trying to figure out what will stick. >> congressman goldman, moments of candor where republicans have suggested that, yes, they're doing this because they see that it negatively impacts president biden's poll numbers. the other topic this morning is the looming federal indictment of donald trump. we're hearing the same arguments. republicans say both there on the hill also presidential candidates that the blame lies

with the department of justice. speak to us how dangerous that is, also frankly impacting americans' faith in their institutions in. >> i think that last point, jon, is the correct one, that the house republicans with donald trump's leadership have been trying to undermine the institutions that hold the powerful accountable and they're doing that because they have noy of the president and he's the leader of their party. and in reality that's why they are trying to attack the hunter biden investigation, which was an exhaustive investigation done by a trump-appointed u.s. attorney and now we have a special counsel on the precipice of charging donald trump with another indictment but the special counsel by regulation is completely independent for the biden justice department which is exactly the point of it.

so there's actually no basis to say that this is somehow a politically -- somehow political interference or weaponization as they say of the department of justice, in fact based on my experience, i'm shocked that hunter biden was even charged with these crimes, if you look at the history of civil and criminal enforcement of tax issues, and just look at roger stone's case, he effectively did the same thing as hunter biden and he paid a fine. the fact that he's taking a plea deal demonstrates a two-tier system of justice against hunter biden not all in favor of donald trump or the republicans. >> all right, congressmen dan goldman and jared moskowi 12 d thank you. to the politics of this, michael steele, it's not that these republicans are looking at hunter, i guess, people have a

right to look at who they want to look at, it's just we're talking about an insurrection at our capitol, we're talk about our democracy being -- we're talking about classified documents and it does seem -- it does seem kind of like what are we in two different worlds? one network they don't want to talk about the insurrection. they don't want to talk about reality. we can cover hunter. we'll cover the hearing. we'll cover it. but also, can we talk about what's important and what might be even consequential? as opposed to going after people. >> you're absolutely on point there. we can do and our system is built, mika, to do more than one thing at a time. >> we have the hunter biden

investigation and we can also investigate donald trump. you can try to shift and refocus the american people's views and images of this narrative or we can also talk about the criminality of the former president of the united states. our system is built to do these things at the same time. what the republican -- what the maga republicans are trying to do is, to get us to focus on the one thing that's their distraction. the one thing that is the narrative they want to thread out and tell us if anything else, anything else is antithet call to the system to its. it's the deep state forcing us and trying to grind the wheels of justice against, who, donald

trump. but as both congressmen just noted this process is going to expose truth because that's how this system is built. the process eventually exposes the truth here and i think it's fascinating to me that hunter biden is nothing more than a boogieman for the right. he's the updated version of hillary clinton. fixated for 30-plus years on her. now they have something they can throw around and to beat up and denigrate and, you know, this great biden crime family, you can say a lot of things about joe biden, being the head of a crime family is not one of those things. you know, i was making a comment over the weekend, make him this big mob boss, in the next

sentence they tell you how old he is. this is how ridiculous it is. these narratives that they're putting out there which is why we have to keep our wry on the justice system and let that process expose and show us the light behind what's going on. >> yeah, i mean to your point, michael, you've got politicians and even media figures foaming at the mouth about hunter biden but will not take a look, will not even address what's happening with the former president and the threat to our democracy in many different ways, whether it's stealing classified documents and then refusing a subpoena and accusing the federal fwoft of raiding him violently, i mean, come on, people. you lose credibility when you're

not able to look at this big flaming, huge thing on one side but you're focused on hunter on the other. it's fine. we can cover hunter. but crow got the cover everything whether you're a journalist covering the story or a politician being asked questions and republicans have zero credibility on this. zero. coming up how congress is looking -- >> go ahead, michael >> it was a republican justice department that investigated hunter biden. and found nothing. the only thing that came out of this is misdemeanor charges on tax evasion. >> there you are. coming up, how congress is looking to address theon going pilots shortage that's plagued the airline industry since the covid-19 pandemic. also ahead, speaker emerita nancy pelosi is our guest at the top of the hour.

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congress is set to vote this week to help address the ongoing pilot shortage, which experts say is contributing to this summer's travel chaos. nbc news correspondent tom costello has the latest. >> reporter: despite an all-out push to hire more pilots faster the nation's airlines are expecting a shortage of 34,000 pilots by 2030, after thousands left during the pandemic and with even more set to retire. under u.s. law airline pilots must retire at the age of 650. though many insist they're better than ever. american captain dan goebbel talked to us before he was forced to retire. you're about to turn 65. why do you want to stay in

cockpit. >> i passed all of my physicals, faa-man dated physicals. i have experience. >> reporter: in denver, united airlines certifying pilots around the clock moving off from smaller regional carriers leaving the regionals short on pilots. >> 5,000 pilotses will come from the academy down in phoenix. >> reporter: 2007 when congress last raised the retirement age from 62 to 65. now it may raise it again, this time to 67. >> there's an absolute shortage of pilots and we're seeing it every day. >> reporter: many other countries have higher or no retirement age including japan, canada, australia and new zealand. but america's biggest pilots union say it may not be safe to keep older pilots as many could

have undiagnosed health issues. >> raising the retirement age from 65 to 67 hasn't been studied. >> reporter: many airlines, faa and white house also oppose raising the mandatory retirement age, making this change without doing research and establishing any necessary policies would be outside the international standard. a u.s. change could force the international standard to also move to 67. meanwhile, part of the new generation of pie hot is now a united airlines first officer and living her dream. you graduated with $100,000 in student loan debt. >> i love it. it's an amazing life style. i've seen the whole world. >> nbc's tom costello with that report. coming up on a morning joe favorite, daniel silva is

standing by, with a look at his brand-new thriller. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. right back.

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welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at washington, d.c. looks like it's going to be a fairly beautiful day. we've been dealing with some dangerous heat temperatures across the country lately. the latest norv until a best-selling thriller book series written by author daniel silva, is out this week. it's entitled "the collector," and it picks up the story of his legendary character. spy guy brielle elon and his quest to find a missing art masterpiece. it's silva's 26th novel and the book in the series, his works have been translated into 30 languages and "the new york

times" best-selling author joins us now on this latest book. it's great to have you back on the show. >> great to be back. >> i don't know how you do it. i mean, and how does -- because you need complete silence to work, correct? >> yeah. i did an ill-advised interview with "the new york times" last summer where i pulled back the curtain a little bit and confessed all my idiosyncrasies about my need for silence, the fact that i do my wife's laundry for her, she comes home every day and there's her laundry waiting for her. i do it, by i limit my "morning joe" viewing to about the first 90 minutes. i'm sorry. i know. but i have to get to work. >> oh, my god. >> i know. and i get to work early in the morning, work seven days a week, i'm on a tight schedule, but this is number 26. >> so that's amazing, and i think, you know, we'll give you that break since you do the

laundry. i do like that on the laundry. tell us about the collector and what readers -- what's the journey that readers, you take the readers on for this one? >> this is gabriel in this novel joins forces with a brilliant and beautiful master thief to find the world's most famous and valuable missing painting, and that is the concert by johannes vermere and uncovers a conspiracy that could bring the world to the brink of nuclear armageddon. it's a fast paced, entertaining, hilarious novel. part mystery, part global thriller. perfect book to take to the beach. it deals with, i think, the most pressing and dangerous issue of our time and that is whether vladimir putin and the russias will resort to some sort of nuclear attack or incident in order to extract themselves from this disastrous war in ukraine.

>> so interesting. what's the timing of the book, given, you know, when the war broke out? were you working on this or was it already put to bed? >> i started this novel, gosh, right after the war broke out, and so it is set in last autumn. you recall, we became very alarmed the russians were casting about for an excuse to use nuclear weapons. we thought that they might be looking for some false flag attack, so we were so concerned that joe biden took the extraordinary step of publicly warning vladimir putin do not do this. this will be catastrophic. behind the scenes, we were war gaming it at the white house and at the pentagon and the cia, and that was a pretty tense period. that is the backdrop for this novel. it's set last fall and it's sort

of an alternative fictional history of what might have happened behind the scenes. >> i'm certainly an unabashed fan of the series. terrific. can't wait to get into this one. so during the process, and you outline it, it's rigorous, your's disciplined, we're on for four hours so you're missing a lot of show, catching 90 minutes. but are you always like trying to really pull in from real-world events? a lot of your books reflect that, others may be less. is it because the moment we're living in, you felt like you couldn't ignore it? >> for better or worse, the gabriel series, 23 books now, has chronicled the first quarter of this extraordinary century that we've lived in, from 9/11 to the capitol siege, the insurrection, and now the war in ukraine. i might argue there's probably a thread that runs through it all. and i'm a former journalist, reformed journalist, reformed

television producer. it's where i'm most comfortable. i'm endlessly fascinated by the world around me, and i would like to -- this is the real world one or two steps removed. >> what was it like as a writer to put yourself in the head space imagining a nuclear armageddon? >> well, it wasn't too terribly difficult. one of the most interesting things along the way with this book, is that i was talking to my sources and they include a former director of the central intelligence agency a former supreme commander of nato, former ground forces commander of nato, and one of the first questions they would ask me is when is your book coming out? because, you know, this -- you could be surpassed by events with this. the book has a component of it that deals with internal opposition to vladimir putin, from within his inner circle. a couple weeks ago, i'm watching

prigozhin grivg driving up the road towards moscow. i'm riding close to the edge trying to catch history in the act. it's kind of as current as tomorrow's headlines i'm afraid. >> the new novel "the collector" is on sale now. daniel silva, thank you so much for coming back on the show. it's always great to see you. >> thank you for having me. >> all right. take care. congratulations. all right. it is just about the top of the hour. former president trump says he is a target in special counsel jack smith's investigation into attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. trump also saying he's been asked to deliver testimony to the grand jury hearing evidence in the investigation and nbc news senior capitol correspondent garrett haake has the latest. >> reporter: former president donald trump now the target of a second criminal federal investigation focusing on his

efforts to stay in power after the 2020 election. attacking the special counsel in iowa overnight. >> it's a disgrace. if you say something about an election they want to put you in jail the rest of your life. it's a disgrace. >> reporter: the former president says his attorneys received a letter sunday giving him until thursday to come to washington and testify before a grand jury. a communication which mr. trump writes, quote, almost always means an arrest and indictment. it is unknown what specific charges the former president could face, but the special counsel's investigation covers any unlawful interference in the transfer of power in 2020. including the attack on the capitol on january 6th and efforts to send fake trump electors to washington. on tuesday, michigan's attorney general unveiled felony election law and forgery charges against 16 pro-trump michigan republicans who signed certificates claiming they were the state's real electors in a state joe biden won. some of those charged have

denied wrongdoing. former vice president and 2024 candidate mike pence insists mr. trump should face political, not legal, accountability for january 6th. >> history will hold him to account for his actions that day, but with regard to the prospect of an indictment i hope it doesn't come to that. >> reporter: a view echoed by mr. trump's top rival florida governor ron desantis. >> i hope he doesn't get charged. >> reporter: mr. trump could face new criminal charges in georgia where a grand jury is set to hear evidence of 2020 election interference. he's already facing criminal charges in new york tied to alleged hush money payments to stormy daniels. mr. trump denies any wrongdoing. he's pleaded not guilty to 37 federal felony charges in florida related to his handling of classified documents at mar-a-lago, announced by the special counsel last month. >> we have one set of laws in this country and they apply to

everyone. >> joining us now speaker emerry ta, democratic congresswoman nancy pelosi of california. it's wonderful to have you on the show this morning. we have a lot to talk to you about, especially as it pertains to women's rights and a special day that we're noting today, but i first have to ask you, given our top story, your reaction to former president trump receiving the target letter as it pertains to january 6th? >> well, the fact is, no one is above the law. as the vice president said, while politics will take care of this, no, no one is above the law. as one who was there and a victim of january 6th i hope that justice will be done. we pled with the president to send the national guard. he did not. we pled with him to call off the -- his folks that he was

inciting. he did not. but again, this is about the facts and the law. no one is above it. he is innocent until proven guilty. that's in the courts. i don't have anything more to say about that. i am happy to be on the show with daniel silva. that's pretty exciting. i can't wait to see "the collector" because i have 30 years of intelligence as a member, as a top democrat on the intelligence committee, ex-official as leader and speaker for 30 years, so i'm eager to see how he has written this up and, of course, have real -- you have to know this, if i were in the scif, the room where you go to get intelligence, and i wrote down a couple of names that i heard in a presentation, just as i had the names straight, i couldn't take that piece of paper out of the room. i would have to hand it in to be

put into a box or something that i could have access to, put i could never take even my own handwritten spelling of three names or one name, out of the room. >> right. >> there's a lot that needs to be addressed here. it's in the court of law. i don't think it's appropriate for me to be talking about that, except to say, that i'm so glad that they are checking in to the documents and also january 6th. of course that relates to overthrowing the results of an election. i just think we're just talking too much about donald trump, so let's get back to the fact that this is the 175th anniversary of the seneca convention where women came together, one good man, frederick douglas, came together to declare not only are all men created equal, but all men and women are created equal, and entitled to their rightful roles in our society.

so it's 175 years today. imagine the courage it took for those women to leave home, some without needing permission from their husbands, fathers, or whatever, to do so, some going without that, and we're still fighting since then, we have expanded freedom in our country for women. eventually the right to vote. other protections for women and the rest, until up with year ago, overturning of roe v. wade. >> so we should -- >> we have work to do. >> we should mention, speaker emerit ta pelosi has a piece published for msnbc.com. the titled "it's been 175 years since history was made at seneca falls and we're still fighting." in it you write about the courage it took for this group of visionary women who met in seneca falls, new york n 1848,

speaking openly about issues of discrimination, disenfranchisement, and domestic violence. you then highlight some of the gains that women have made since then, but you go on to write, quote, yet outrageously, our centuries long march toward gender justice was abruptly halted last summer when the republican supermajority on the supreme court took a wrecking ball to women's health freedom. for the first time in our history, girls growing up today have less freedom than their mothers. democrats will not rest until the rights of roe are restored for all. at the same time, women still face too many barriers in the workplace. gender justice starts with finally achieving equal pay for equal work, and we must ease the burden of caregiving that falls disproportionately on women by investing in the expanded child tax credit, universal child

care, paid family and medical leave, home health care services, and more. this is imperative, the ongoing work of the biden-harris administration. so i would like to ask you, though, because personally i feel really scared for our women and girls in terms of women's health rights. what is the way forward? because it does feel like we are completely turning around and going backwards in time. >> one would think that in terms of this court, but elections have ramifications, and this republican house right now, can you imagine not one of them voted for our -- women's health act, the legislation which would enshrine roe v. wade law of the land. three voted for women to travel one state to the next in order to have access to reproductive

health care. eight of them, eight members of the republican house of representatives, out of 222, eight of them voted to give -- women have access to contraception. this is complete disrespect for women and it is, as i say, women are not -- they're not for birth control but they are for controlling women. it's not partisan. this is about women coming together and speaking up. what women saw when they marched the day after what's his name's inauguration, is showing up counts for a lot. showing up, women marched, women ran, and women voted. women won. we have to do that again. it is absolutely essential. by the way, this is bidenomics. president biden -- people ask me, how did it feel when you

were sitting there with the woman vice president of the united states, woman speaker of house, when the president made the state of the union address? i said, it's exciting. i love kamala. she's a californian. we watched her career and so proud of her. what was exciting is the speech that president made for all the things that you mentioned. biden child tax credit, family and medical leave, equal pay for equal work, home health care workers, so that women could rightfully take their role in the workplace and when women succeed, we believe america succeeds. thank you, joe biden, kamala harris, for their leadership, but also the democrats and the congress. unfortunately, so far, that's about -- we would like it to be bipartisan. we have to make sure that when women vote, they make sure that who they vote for know what they care about. >> i mean, isn't it remarkable, though, republicans understand, they have to understand the

political consequences, madam speaker, of their extreme positions. so when 10-year-old girls have to flee the state of ohio after they've been raped, when you have candidates talking about how girls being raped by their uncles are perfect examples of why there aren't any exceptions, in wisconsin an abortion complete abortion ban going back to 1849, that republicans keep on the book, and yet, they get wiped out in wisconsin, they get wiped out in kansas, they lose in kentucky, they lose in these red states and yet they can't seem to help themselves. they stay with these extreme positions. i think it's safe to call them extreme positions where 90% of americans are opposed to abortion laws that have no exception for rape, incest, life of the mother. it's extreme. do you not see any movement among your republican peers in the house and the growing

understanding that they are in the extremist part of the american electorate? >> well, thank you for spelling it out that way. we had a big victory in wisconsin, as you alluded to. judge janet will take office soon and we hope that will help us. redistricting has a lot to do with this. you know in the last election, people said we were going to lose 40 seats because i was incorrectly focusing on women's right to choose, on democracy, on climate, on gun violence protection. they said that's not the issue. what did we lose? we lost five seats. we lost five seats in new york, but we won in the rest of the country because roe v. wade was not as -- our democratic opponents were saying is in the rearview mirror. roe v. wade was front and central to women in terms of their well being. it's an economic, it's a health

issue, economic issue, respect issue, and the rest, and women know. so again, when women vote, women win, and women's ideas. again, we don't want this to be partisan. i keep saying take back your party, joe, to the republicans. take back your party. this is a grand old party. it had been part of planned parenthood right from the start. environmental protection right from the start. and what has it gone on, to be a call to a -- that's another issue. i don't want to talk about him. but thank you so much, mika, for your promotion of women and success of women and showcasing so much of that. again, when women succeed, america succeeds or any country succeeds. we talk about women in afghanistan, i wear the ring close to my heart, women in iran, women in ukraine who are rape is becoming a weapon of war. the disrespect of women is something that is really connected, and it shouldn't be

happening in the united states of america. >> and elections, again, have ramifications. yeah. >> ramifications and consequences and i -- mika has done an extraordinary job. >> extraordinary. >> so grateful for your participation in it as well. i wanted to ask you, i remember when i served on the armed services committee, the generals i know, i know you heard the same thing, the generals and the admirals, man, they would get ahold of me and they would say, what is going on? why do you have all of these extremists bringing social issues into defense budget debates and holding up our attempts to make our troops readiness the best ever? our weapons the toughest ever? all this stuff. so republicans, it seems, over the past several years v been saying, oh, the democrats, they've been trying to bring

social issues into the pentagon. that actually is always what they say is projection or confession. they're the ones doing it. i'm just curious, how mind-bending it is that the very people that say oh, democrats are making the military woke, when, of course, our military is stronger than its ever been, they're the same ones bringing drag queens and extreme abortion positions into our defense budget and harming america's readiness. >> yeah. well, and again, we take an oath to protect and defend our country and our military as a very important way that we do that. our intelligence community as well. and the strength of our economy, everything is connected in all of this. but what they're doing now is almost unexplainable. if you take what the house republicans have done to our

defense bill as well as what the senator from alabama is doing in the senate to hold up these confirmations of people who have to be in the line of duty to take action to protect the american people, it just doesn't -- it's, again, inexplicable because, again, we're all there to protect and defend our country. the bill that came out of the armed services committee, a committee you served on, was very bipartisan. i think it had one no vote. it was just about 100% bipartisan until they came to the floor and started really messing with it. it's a tragedy. it's really sad. what i don't understand and you've been so outspoken and courageous as a former republican member of congress, whom i was proud to serve with and we worked together on human rights in china and so many

other issues, where are the republicans in our country? why are they not speaking snout take back your party. this is a grand old party and done great things for our country. what are we caught into this situation and, of course, the fact that they want to ignore violations of law of a former president is inconsistent with their own statements. so again, elections have ramifications on -- happily in a place where i can continue to be working politically, but i would hope that it could be -- we could be working in a unifying way to bring people together, democrats, republicans, as we call them in california, so that we're there to honor our oath, to uphold the law, no one is above it, and to be respectful of women because that, again, is really important for our country. i'm there for the children, and so my judgment about anybody is,

what they are doing is harmful to the children, whether it's the air they breathe, the climate crisis that we have, their education, children learning, parents learning, we have a wonderful country and we have to recapture some of the greatness of that, that again has been put in doubt by the current leadership in the republican party and the congress of the united states. >> you know, isn't it something, mika, the speaker just talking about the wonderful country we have, talking about what the grand old party used to be. >> i know. >> we used to talk about how great the country was, how great the military was, we used to defend our men and women in uniform, we didn't try to defund the fbi, didn't trash american colleges and universities, because they were the best in the world. they're still the best in the world. we still have the strongest economy in the world. the state of california, which is supposed to be a liberal hot

mess hads a bigger economy than great britain, france, australia. you can go down the list. all they want to do is trash america. they trash america's military. like the speaker said we have a wonderful country and you have republican senators saying i wish we could be more like russia. >> and this show used to be a great place where you could have a chill conversation, different points of view, republican, democrat, everybody would come to the table, but now i think we're all feeling a little scared for our democracy. i'll speak for myself -- >> no. >> more confidence than me. >> i think democracies are imperfect or made up of people and people are imperfect and we're at an interesting turning point, madam speaker, and i'm curious without, you know, asking you to speak personally about anybody, but you have, you know, the gentleman who replaced you as the speaker of the house and other republicans in the house and republicans in

general, not addressing the crimes that many people believe, you know who, committed against our democracy. not willing to confront the reality in front of us. how are -- what's the way forward through that? >> well, again, people have to know, abraham lincoln said public sentiment is everything. with it you can accomplish almost anything. without it practically nothing. but for public sentiment to prevail, people have to know, so thank you for helping people know, but we have to do more in that regard so that people understand what is at stake in our country, and again, you see the -- ignoring of the violations of the law, the potential alleged violations of the law, of the former president being totally ignored and that's why i keep saying, there are a

lot of republicans in this country who are not speaking out about that and i just -- that's a mystery to me. thank you, joe, for your courage to do so. but again, you're asking, we have to be hopeful. that's just the way. an optimistic country we will be hopeful. as we go forward we can do this in a unifying way. we couldn't be better served in that regard than by president joe biden. this is a person who respects other points of view, the vision of our founders, respects the sack cra fives our men and women in uniform to keep our freedom intact and again, honors the aspirations of our children. he has a vision about the future. he knows the issues. he's strategic in how to get things done. and that's all intellectual from the heart. he's the most empathetic, unifying person we could have. i'm very excited about the re-election of the president.

biden nom micks are kitchen table issues. how do we address the kitchen table concerns of america's working families and that is the most important table in america. not the board room table, not the cabinet room table, but the kitchen table of america's working families and joe biden is committed to that. so i know that there's a lot of attention that is being paid to all these trials, but the president yesterday, the former president saying he's going to redo the presidency and take more power, the genius of the constitution, is the separation of power. separation of power. checks and balances. that's what makes us a democracy. not a monarchy which our founders rejected. i mean, what does he do? he does it to get press.

all day, people talked about that. instead, we should be talking about how we can work together to get the job done for our country. let the courts do what they need to do in terms of bringing someone to justice or not, however that turns out. but the fact is, that there was an assault on our constitution on january 6th, a day that was designated to accept the results of the electoral college, and the plan was to make sure that didn't happen. and an assault on our constitution, assault on the congress of the united states, house and senate, an assault on the capitol, this temple of democracy to the world, and that was very important for us to come back that same night and say, we're back, we're here and we're going to accept. i can say as i was one of the

targets that day, it was pretty scary, but i had security. many of the workers in the capitol who maintain it all, many of the members and the staff and all the rest, they didn't. this was very dangerous and the president wouldn't call off his whatever you want to call them and would not send in the national guard. so that has to be addressed. but again, so that it never happens again, we must, again, in our elections, elect people, whether democrats or republicans or whatever, who are committed to the oath of office to protect and defend the constitution and in doing so, show up. again, women learned when they showed up the day after the inauguration, it meant something so important to the country. and when women show up to vote, it will make a difference. again, that doesn't mean just vote democratic. it means make sure the person you vote for understand how

important respect for women, a woman's right to choose, and the rest. i say that as a devout practicing catholic. i say that as a mother of five children in six years and one week i keep reminding my archbishop, but it's really -- so in any event, when disrespect for women is something that i am very passionate about, but very dispassionate about how we go about making the difference and making the change and getting this back. again, in the last election, women voted, women made a difference. we almost held the house even though they said we're going to lose 40 seats and we didn't. you saw two of our new members on earlier, so proud of our freshmen colleagues and new leadership hakeem jeffries, pete aguilar and ted lu from

california and, of course, very proud of our president and vice president of the united states. so we just have to get out there and make sure people understand that their vote makes a difference in their lives. and again, in terms of the people of ukraine, that we are there for them and appreciate the fight they're making for democracy, for their democracy, and for democracy writ large in the world. ignoring the comments of the former occasional occupant of the white house. >> right. >> exactly. and you know, it's very interesting, as the governor of new york said when she was here and what we've been saying for some time, democrats would have actually held on to the house if a local judge in new york state hadn't intervened and if they hadn't have ripped the redistricting process out of the board that actually had put together a map, that again, a bipartisan board, and that would have actually -- that was the

difference between republicans and democrats running the house. >> i want to ask, speaker pelosi, about 2024 and you talked about president biden's successful presidency so far, all the points on the board. it's a long list. i think, arguably, abouttively, one can say he has accomplished a great deal, maybe historic proportions, but there's -- the question i have for you as a honoree on the very first 50 over 50 list forbes and know your value a lot of people are talking about the president's age as a factor in this, especially republicans. what do you make of the criticism the president is getting that he's too old to have a second term? >> i think the president should embrace his age, his experience, what he -- the knowledge that he brings to the job. actually, the leader on the

other side is not much younger. i don't like to use his name, but you know who i mean. he's not that much younger. so i don't think -- age is a relative thing. it is -- and i think this president, our country is very well served by his leadership, again, his experience, his knowledge, and it counts for a lot. he really his first two years in office, i take some credit for that in terms of congressional democrats having the courage to go out there and vote for some of these things which were being mischaracterized by the other side, that it was record breaking and we have more -- there's still more work to be done in terms of women in the work place and the rest. so we want him to do his unfinished business. i couldn't be prouder of him. again, we're very fortunate that he is in that position. but again, age is relative.

what -- i was in l.a. for some democratic stuff recently and i met with norman leeer, i was meeting with frank geary, 90s something, architect, showing me new buildings he's building throughout the world and they were like 80, he's a kid. i was like yeah. it is -- it is relative. he's younger than i am, so he's a kid to me as well. the president is. >> speaker -- >> i don't think that it's an excuse -- it's not a reason, it's an excuse, and we have to get on with this election for the children, for the people. thank you for the opportunity to be with you. >> speaker emerit tus nancy pelosi, thank you for being on this morning. you can read more on her new piece on "seneca falls" at

msnbc.com. still ahead on "morning joe," we will speak with the man "forbes" magazine calls cryptocurrency's unlikely antagonist. actor ben mckenzie tell us why he's joined the fight against the currency. >> plus the new film "oppenheimer" opens in theaters this friday. i sat down with the writer-director christopher nolan about bringing his vision to the big screen. that conversation is ahead on "morning joe." we're back in a moment. i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. take the first step to see if your small business qualifies.

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your heart. >> 30 seconds. ♪♪ >> ten, nine, eight, seven, six,

five, four, three, two, one. >> that is a scene from the most highly anticipated movie of the summer "oppenheimer" which takes us inside the mind of robert oppenheimer, the father of the atomic bomb. with us now, the film's writer and director christopher nolan and producer emma thomas. emma, let's start by talking to each other like christopher is not here. the world goes oh, my god, such an amazing director and the van off the bridge and 12 and how does he do it? you've said the key to oppenheimer and getting this extraordinary cast, the best i've ever seen, was actually the fact that he's an incredible writer. >> luckily we had an amazing cast who very much wanted to work with chris as a director,

but i would imagine as an actor what you are deciding are the words on the page. this script was fantastic. it was slightly miraculous in my opinion. i don't know if you've seen the book, but it's a weighty turn, and he managed to make an exciting script out of that. >> and there's a moment that really stands out to me and it's when the general and oppenheimer are going back and forth, and it somehow manages to encapsulate the relationship and sort of the pushing and the pulling where the general says, why haven't you won the nobel prize and oppenheimer says why aren't you a general? maybe i will be. there's this back and forth. but i just sit there thinking, okay, it has this extraordinarily complex relationship which he's able to write to, and explain to the audience very quickly in a way that pulls in the audience, who

these two people are individually and together. >> when general gross selected oppenheimer to run the laboratory, nobody thought he was right, making the most unlikely choice. but there was something about that first meeting, you know, as i read about it in the book i'm adapting, incredible book about the life of oppenheimer, oppenheimer saw an opportunity to connect with gross, but saw an opportunity, and he was a very ambitious man, he made his pitch. he made his pitch on how he would run it and what he would do and how he would bring together all the different intellects and personalities that they needed to bring together and make this a practical proposition. >> when we talked with killian, he said something about oppenheimer i had not picked up in the movie or book, he was a great synthesizer, may not have been the best in the lab or best mathematician, but the world

belongs to the synthesizers, and he was one of them. >> he was absolutely one of the them. asked why don't you have a nobel prize, by then a lot of his contempt operates did. he wasn't the expert, but what he could do, my friend kip thorn, who was on the project as an adviser, nobel prize winning physicist, we made "interstellar" together, he was able to attend seminars that oppenheimer ran at the institute for study early in kip's career and he was able to talk about okay, how would he run these discussions? apparently he had a miraculous gift listening to an argument put forth and summarizing it quickly for the others and moving on to get input from somebody else. and that is a skill that in the years of manhattan project when they were in the desperate race against the nazis to-ness the

-- harness the power of the atom, what that might do, what a chain reaction might do, but theory can take you only so far. they had to actually make a machine, make a machine of destruction that could go on an airplane and kill people. it's a very different thing sitting there thee rising in a classroom. >> it's extraordinary. emma, let's go from "oppenheimer" to "tootsie". >> i like it when people come up to me the next day or a week later and they say, i saw your play. what happened? >> i remember walking out of the theater after, and i don't know who this dude is, but my question, how did he put it together? christopher comes to you and goes, this is what i want to do. everything is going to go

backwards. hey, i've got this great idea. they're going to have all of these dream states and we're going to start at the bottom, you know, the fourth or fifth level down and a van is going -- this time, he brought up los alamos. what was the react shen when he said we're going to rebuild los alamos, can you do that? come on. he doesn't make anything easy for you, does he? >> he doesn't. i think every script of his i've ever read i picked up with a great deal of trepidation. every script he brings, has challenges. i think that the building of los alamos was the biggest challenge on this one, and i don't think i actually quite realized how big of a challenge when i first read it, because i hadn't been to the real los alamos. we had an amazing crew and they managed to create an entire world out of basically nothing and we're grateful to them for it. i think i see my job very much as facilitating the vision that

chris has in whatever form that is, and that's whether that be finding the right partner in the sort of financier to as i say, hiring the right people. i think that on this film, we felt very strongly we needed to have a really great production dp to translate the script into the visuals you see on hopefully the largest screen you can possibly get to. >> you know, speaking of scripts, i heard matt damon say you were such a good writer and this was such a great script it actually caused problems. you called up and said, can i have your notes. he says, i don't have any. >> nothing but time. when push came to shove, matt is himself a great writer. he's an oscar winning writer. he has the confidence to say i have no notes because he knows that he understand, you know, screen craft in this very elevated way.

and when it came time to shoot his last scene, which is -- i don't want to give away spoilers, a security hearing and moment, he added a crucial line, i don't want to give it away, a key moment that finishes and summarizes his relationship with the -- all the sides of the manhattan project in particular with oppenheimer, and that's the great thing about working with the best. the best actors. they're not just actors, it they're creative partners, particularly when dealing with historical people, they bring all this research to bear and whether it's robert downey jr. coming in with his take on luis stras, he's a very complicated character. >> he could easily be seen pretty much as a black and white figure, a villain, and robert downey jr., very sympathetic to him. >> oh, yeah. >> i think that's awesome that as an actor he gets so much into the part, that he actually said listen, this was an important guy who did really good things.

>> i was thrilled when robert read the script and talked to me about it, i was thrilled that he connected with strauss in a positive way. that's when you get real complexity. that's when you get an actor who is fully committed to the point of view of the character. >> isn't it extraordinary that unlike most movies, when the protagonist gets closer and closer to his or her goal instead of going yeah, chuck yeager broke the sound barrier and yes, that's a man, look at him, instead here, they get closer and closer to the goal, especially if you see it in imax and became so pulled in, i just had a sinking feeling in my stomach going oh, my god, this was the before time and they're getting closer to a new harrowing era. >> totally. it's a beautiful moment in the film when they achieve their goal, but it's also absolutely

terrifying. i think that that's why in many ways, this story sort of suits the chris nolan nerve completely. there's always ambiguity in the stories that chris tells. i think when i think back to "dunkirk" and that was perceived in the uk as very much a victory, but in actual fact it was a terrible defeat, i think this is a similarly ambiguous and nuanced situation in our history that really we should be, i think, much more mindful of. >> yeah. here's another clip. this is a scene when danish physicist nooels bore is talking with oppenheimer what's going to happen after the bomb was detonated. >> i knew you could do this without me. >> why did you come? >> to talk about after. the power you're about to reveal will forever outlive the nazis

and the world is not prepared. >> it could lift the stone without being ready for the snake revealed. >> we have to make the politicians understand this isn't a new weapon. it's a new world. i'll be out there doing what i can, but you, you are an american, the man who gave them the power to destroy themselves and they'll respect that. >> i couldn't help but think about a.i. i kept asking myself, wait a second, here, when this technology was unleashed, everybody got around very quickly and protected it. right now, with a.i., you have these dudes that are micro dosing and going to crazy parties every night, and i'm not -- i'm dead serious about this, and they tell us, to trust them with a.i., and right now the government is. i'm speaking for myself here. it's frightening, but i think there really is a parallel

between what people will see on the screen and what they're starting to understand about a.i. talk about that. >> when you talk to the leading researchers of a.i. right now, they refer to this right now as their oppenheimer moment. which to me is somewhat good news. it means they're looking to oppenheimer's story as a cautionary tale. they're looking to responsible research in the field of a.i. they're looking for parallels or guidance in terms of what is the responsibility of scientists putting a new technology out in the world that might have unintended consequences. the thing that has most protected us from the proliferation of nuclear weapons, how difficult it is to make them. the intensive industrial resources. the manhattan project, making those bombs dropped on japan involved about 600,000 americans. when you get into the realm of software, when you get into the realm of, you know, the digital world, there are no such constraints. it's absolutely a frightening time and i take heart that they

are looking to oppenheimer's story to warn us there is accountability for those who put new technology out in the world. >> that was my conversation earlier this week with "oppenheimer" director christopher nolan and producer emma thomas. tomorrow see my exclusive sit down with emily blount and matt damon. hits theaters nationwide this friday. some have called it the greatest film of this century. it is breathtaking. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

"oppenheimer" director we'll be right back with much "oppenheimer" director we'll be right back with much

sleepovers just aren't what they used to be. a house full of screens? basically no hiccups? you guys have no idea how good you've got it. how old are you? like, 80? back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. we don't get scared. oh, really? mom can see your search history. that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. millions share ideas, trade stock, crypto and beyond. in other words, etoro. the power of social investing. e. >> is the hype too much in am i ready? >> if you want to make history,

you better call your own shots. >> we're going to the league. we 2022 was the year crypto currency took over the super bowl, but this year, the industry fell silent running no commercials during the big game. several exchange companies are now facing legal troubles including ftx which filed for bankruptcy last november. and the company's founder faces charges for defrauding customers out of billions of dollars. the celebrities who were once the face of the crypto are also staying out of the spotlight as they face backlash for promoting a virtual currency that comes with major risks.

our next guest says he too almost fell victim to the hype until he did his own research. joining us now, ben mckenzie, normally an actor by trade, he is now co-author of the new book entitled "easy money." so ben, take us through your own process. what, is it the bottom line something seems too good to be true, then it probably is or what struck you potentially problematic about crypto? >> that is exactly right. it starts with language actually. i'm a story teller by trade obviously as an actor. and words are our tools. words can be used for a variety of purposes to inspire, to entertain, but also to deceive. and so in cryptocurrency calling themselves currencies, i have a degree in economics. they are not currencies but instead investments. people are not using them as

currencies. they are investments but they are unregulated and unlicensed investment thes. in the 1920s before federal security laws, it was the wild west and roaring 20s, it was all fun until it all came crashing down in the crash of 1929 that led to the great depression. powers that be realized we need some had rules. and these are much more similar to the unregulated securities. and unfortunately a lot of regular americans have lost real money. >> yeah, they have. and my question to you is like especially these celebrities, maybe they don't have the degree that you have and all that, but what about the people managing their money, like how did this get so out of control? >> you know, cryptocurrency is a very powerful and compelling story. crypto basically became a story that it was going to fix all of the problems with our admittedly

flawed regulated financial system. so i think the story of cryptocurrency had a lot of power because most people could agree on the premise that our current system is deeply flawed. but unfortunately, that didn't make the story of cryptocurrency true. as for my fellow celebrity colleagues, i can't speak on their behalf, but they were given bad advice from their agents, managers, lawyer, whoever. they should have done their due diligence. but that is why you should not be giving financial advice if you are not a licensed financial adviser. these celebrities are not being hocking car insurance. this is a big problem and it hurts their own brand. unfortunately i only realized these things in retrospect. >> so when you did the research on this with your co-author, i'm just curious, are there winners and losers, are there people

making off with tons of money with no consequences or is everyone ultimately going to fall victim to crypto? >> there are definitely wirnss winners and losers. cryptocurrency resembles a upon ponzi scheme. and 99% of people lose but 1% profit. if you imagine a pyramid, it is everyone at the bottom, regular retail traders, most of whom lose money. and at the top are the people that runt exchanges, venture capital firms, the people that issue the coins. some are now facing criminal charges. or civil charges. sam bankman-fried who i interviewed in july of last year before he was arrested and charged with mashinky who i int before he was arrested. >> and the new book is titled

"easy money." ben mckenzie, thank you very much, thanks for writing the book and for being on this morning. >> thank you, mika. and we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." have bought off politicians so they can get away with ripping us off. that's changing now. joe biden passed a plan to jumpstart clean energy production in america. it's creating good jobs that can't be outsourced and will lower energy costs. $1800. that's how much a new report says the inflation reduction act could save just the average american family on energy costs. [narrator] learn how the inflation reduction act will save you money.

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when a president speaks, the secret service typically requires those attending to pass through metal detectors known as mags. >> he was angry that letting people through the mags with weapons. i heard him say i don't care that they have weapons, they are not here to hurt me. let the people in, take the fing mags away. >> just to be clear, is if your understanding that the president wanted to take the mags away and said that the armed individuals were not there to hurt him? >> that is a fair assessment.

>> also very fair assessment to say let them in, they are not here to hurt me with their weapons. and then we want them to go up to the capitol with those weapons. i mean, it is just -- again, it is just so stark. and i will say also jonathan lemire talked about this, the january 6 committee, bennie thompson and liz cheney and the entire committee -- >> they laid it out. >> such an invaluable service to this country. few people expected that committee to make the difference that it made. it is one of the few congressional committees i've ever seen that actually mattered. >> and at the same time, some republicans still, still schill for donald trump on this. >> only republicans who do that are republicans who care more

about defending a failed reality tv show host and fascist who tried to overthrow the federal government than they care about america. >> so that was cassidy hutchinson testifying before the january 6 committee. she was an assistant to trump's chief staff mark meadows you will remember. her testimony bolstered the panel's case that the former president was aware that his supporters could be armed prior to the storming of the capital capitol. she would go on to reveal that the trump tried to lead the mob into a march to the capitol but was denied by secret service. and now two sources confirm to nbc news that trump received a letter from special counsel jack smith this week informing him that he is a target of a federal investigation into efforts to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 election. those efforts include but not

limited to the january 6 attack on the united states capitol. that right there. although a target letter does not definitively mean a person will be charged, in most cases it is a precursor to an indictment. jonathan lemire and elise jordan are back with us. and joining the conversation we have john heilemann. and also professor at princeton university. and also professor of history at tulane university, the great walter isaacson. >> and speaking of history, just talk about the historic nature of what is unfolding before our eyes. i mean, a former president of the united states appearing to be -- well, getting notification that he could be charged for being part of a conspiracy to submit sedition against the united states. >> you know, what understand a

few moments ago is that, you know, the republican party, the republicans who are defending him instead of standing up to him are doing it for you've described pretty weird reasons and then you said afterwards that there are a lot of them meaning republicans doing it. the historical nature of this is that nobody in his party is standing up to him. if you look at -- i saw the "oppenheimer" film last night. and i know you were talking about it earlier in the show. at the end of the mccarthy period, everybody from eisenhower to welch of the mccarthy hearings are standing up to him. so what i find baffling is those in the republican party who aren't going to stand up to this guy. they are the ones who will be historically remembered. >> and a guy who loves to play

it tough, john heilemann, ron desantis, a supposed tough guy who picks on, you know, picks on corporations that actually talk about diversity and picks on others. yesterday he was almost apologetic to call out donald trump for sitting in his office and doing nothing while donald trump's mob tried to commit insurrection against the united states government. and he looked so wake up there. he looked so afraid of donald trump. he kind of wiped his nose and face. he was nervous after saying, of course, not a crime, not a crime to commit sedition against the united states of america basically is what he was saying. but still he just sat back and did nothing. they are all such quizlings, they are also weak.

how in the world do they expect to beat donald trump? i want to play you this for our audience just tuning in on the west coast, they can see ron desantis at his very weakest. >> there is a difference between being brought up on criminal charges and doing things like for example i think it was shown how he was in the white house and didn't do anything while things were going on. he should have come out more forcefully, of course. but to try to criminalize that, that is a different issue entirely. and i think that we want to be in a situation where you don't have one side just constantly trying to put the other side in jail. and that unfortunately is what we're seeing now. >> had to wipe the sweat from his forehead because he was so nervous that he was actually saying maybe it was a bad idea that donald trump didn't stop

the insurrection against the united states government earlier. >> wow, so much to say about all of this. first thing, you have to directly address ron desantis and say, you know, i think that we all agree we don't want to be in a situation where one side is constantly trying to criminalize our politics. here is a suggestion then. how about the other side not continue to commit crimes against the republic. if that were to happen, we wouldn't haveiing our politics. like one of the great crimes against the american state that has ever been committed and the former president going to get charged almost certainly for having been some way complicit in that kril. -- crime. none of this would be a problem if that had not ooccurred. you watch him sweating up there, but there are so many different potential causes for that sweat. abandonment of all of his donors who are running away, the need to fire staffers at this

earliest stage in the campaign, the fact that he is in public view of the campaign that is fundamentally unraveling. and one thing that we all know is that having covered a fair number of campaigns, if things look bad from the outside of a campaign, i can promise you this, republican, democrat, liberal, conservative, it is always three times worse inside the campaign than the press is re reflecting. you don't have happy disciplined campaign staffers going to the press. if you have a campaign that has got its stuff together, they are locked down tight and are on message. the desantis campaign is turning against itself because people can see that the titanic has hit the iceberg. so ron desantis has a lot to be freaking out about. but to come back to walter isaacson's point, the difference between the mccarthy era is that there was not a cult leader at the top of the republican party

in dwight d. eisenhower who would turn the entire party into a cultive personality. biggest problem all these people have is not when it comes confronting donald trump, but they recognize one fundamental truth, that the party, the majority or the very, very large plurality of the party, the voters who make up the republican party, remain on donald trump's side on this question. until that changes, everyone who aspires to lead it will be caught in the same conundrum. obviously the guy did something horrible but voters don't want to hear it. so do i risk my political future or try to pander to the party. and you can see where desantis and the rest of the party has come down. >> certainly right. only a few voices, the chris christie s and asa hutchinson who are willing to condemn what trump did. and what i was hoping that you

could do is talk to us about this moment in history, not about the republican cowards, that is clear. but rather the fact that though some believe this will be the hardest of the cases to prosecute against donald trump, but also the most serious and i would say certainly the most important. because of what this was. this was an attack at our very democracy, our traditions of who we are as a nation. so tell us what you think as we are now just days away from an indictment of donald trump for those very crimes. >> i think that is a wonderful question. and i think that it has to do with the core of how people have thought about democracies. going all the way back to edmond burke, there is a view that democracies were untenable because human beings were irrational, that our passions would overwhelm our ability to self govern.law,

will we hold all of these folk accountable, or will our political passions overrun, will those passions then deny legitimacy of the court, will those passions deny legitimacy of the decisions. will it undermine the very foundation of the politics. so we're at this moment where it seems the question of whether every not everyday people can engaging in self-governance. and it is on the table because of a man who is fundamentally compromised morally and ethically. and there is something underneath it that suggests that we have something that we have to deal with as a nation. so it is an inflection point to my mind about the workings of democracy itself. >> and while all of these trump legal woes take up a lot of space in the conversation, the

question has always been how the biden re-election campaign breaks through with its message. >> they have a great spokesperson now. >> yeah, they have come up with a new spokesperson. >> and his spokesperson -- i mean, never really saw it coming. >> i didn't either. i usually see it. >> but they laid out their successes i think in a way that -- >> crystallizes it really. >> and it is like she's lived it herself. >> so let's listen to the new biden campaign spokeswoman bragging on all the accomplishments of this administration. take a look. >> joe biden had the largest public investment in social infrastructure and environmental programs that is actually finishing what fdr started that lbj expanded on and joe biden is attempting to complete. programs to address education, medical care, urban problems, rural poverty, transportation,

medicare, medicaid, labor unions, and he still is working on it. >> the president posted had video on twitter writing i approve this message. >> wow. >> walter -- >> wow. >> walter, my former party is so clueless. the people who are the most influential in the house are people who are attacking medicare, mdg is from rural georgia where my family is from, dalton, georgia, attacking medicaid, certainly should be understanding that hospitals in dalton, georgia and nursing homes in dalton, georgia, assisted living centers in dalton, georgia, all of these health care for rural americans

depends on medicare and medicaid above all else, and those other accomplishments that she was talking about those are what we used to call in politics 80/20 issues. which means that you are on the side of the 80. the other side is on the side of the 20. but this is what republicans are doing on policy. it is what they are doing on abortion. it is what they are doing on ukraine. it is really crazy stuff, isn't it? >> i love the ad. i think that the biden administration has had great successes that are overarching which include having unemployment and inflation both hovering around the 3% level. nobody would have thought that would have happened. i know jonathan just got back from vilnius. and if you told me finland and

sweden would be in nato because of this, these are huge. and so what confuses me some is that marjorie taylor greene is the best spokesman for the biden administration. i haven't really seen they will the message out, the biden administration get the message out, as well as i think that they should. >> and let's jump to the august republican debate going to be held mid month. donald trump seems unlikely to participate. how big is the night for the other republican contenders who do take the stage? >> i mean, without donald trump on the stage, a lot less big than it would have been otherwise. this nomination fight is really only about one thing. can any of these people who are running, all of them in various shapes and sizes and ideological stripes, can any be a plausible

alternative and convince a party that is built around cult ist personality like donald trump be a viable alternative. and i think most are not known even though we know who they all are. bimost people in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina don't know who most are fundamentally. so they get the opportunity to get some media attention. but i'll say without donald trump on that stage, the viewer ship of that debate will be considerably less. that is a large part of why donald trump won't be on take stage. and all of that without the ability do the direct contrast. they won't get the fundamental thing they need which is to

stand on stage next to donald trump and have the republican party look up and say, yeah, that guy instead of this other guy we've been devoted to the past decade. a tall order to begin with. and without that direct contact on stage, it is even taller. >> and some other headlines we're following this morning, american airlines flight attendants may soon go on strike. the union representing the workers will hold a strike authorization vote starting next week. it comes amid failed contract negotiations, the union says flight attendants have not received a raise since their last contract was signed back in 2019. they are now asking for a 35% increase in wages. the union raises more than 26,000 workers. in a statement american airlines says it continues to meet with the union and wants to reach an agreement quickly. >> by the way, i mean, it is getting harder and harder to fly this summer because of the

extraordinary weather crisis gripping the country. causing flights to be canceled left and right. headline out of las vegas, delta flight canceled when heat-related illnesses hit passengers. 108 degrees outside, four hours on the tarmac, and people inside the airplane suffering heat-related illnesses. again, you look at the storms and the disasters. and if you are still denying impact of climate change and impact of billions and billions of americans pumping carbon into ats moss fear nonstop, china and india especially right now, but also the united states disproportionately doing the same. you are living in an alternate reality. you really are.

but eddie, when i see the back and forth between unions and the airliners. and i hear that -- we heard this especially last summer, oh, we don't have enough pilots, we don't have enough -- i think about, what was it, $50 billion, $54 billion dollars in bailouts these airliners got. and these airlines after getting the tens of billions of dollars, what did they do? they got rid of their pilots. they got rid of flight attendants. they sort of pushed them into retirement, paid them off to get out of the way to cut expenses. so now obviously flight attendants, pilots, everybody, having to do more for less. so i'm glad to hear that american is talking about settling this quickly. they really need to settle this quickly because we the taxpayers paid them tens of billions of

dollars. you know, they have got to do the right thing. >> absolutely, joe. and what we've witnessed over the course of my lifetime of course is shrinking of competition in the airlines business. we have four major airlines or something like that. and they are making money -- making billions as you say. and what we also see which is really important is the volatility of the labor market. and i don't mean in terms of people getting jobs. i'm thinking about the activism of labor. we see what is happening with the u.p.s. workers, with the airline worker, we see what is happening in hollywood. there is a shift happening in terms of folks' relationship to work. and that is making itself known acrossment employment landscape. so we're at an interesting inflection point, but you're right, these people are making money hands over heels and in some ways exploiting the

consumer and they will have to address this or we'll find ourselves in this crisis again. >> and we're also following more cases of malaria reported in florida. health officials have confirmed eight cases in the sunshine state. they were all identified in sarasota county. cdc says they are not linked to travel outside of the country and don't constitute a public health emergency. this is the first time though that the rust has seen local malaria infections in 20 years. the disease is usually caused by mosquito bites. >> another reason to be worried about the sunshine state. walter, i'm curious about on that "oppenheimer." when i was talking to christopher nolan, i noted some similarities between einstein and oppenheimer. oppenheimer of course in what will be a famous scene in the movie when he is talking to

another physicist, says i'm not good in the lab, i'm really not that good at math. and the guy goes that is all right, you don't have to read the sheet music as long as you hear it in your head. do you hear the music. he said yes. and it reminded me so much of your book in 2007 where einstein may not have been the greatest in the lab, but his mind, he was a gifted beautiful mind and your story about how he discovered the theory of relativity with the lightning strikes, he envisioned it in his mind, two different places on a train. and from this sort of thinking, this sort of beautiful, beautiful analysis is how he like oppenheimer were able to synthesize all of this information together. >> you know, you talked about synthesis when you talked to

christopher nolan. one of the problems we sometimes have is everybody is in their different silos and that is what oppenheimer was arguing against when he brought them together. he said i need to have the near wrists sitting there with the experimentalists and people doing various things. i think what einstein was able to do and oppenheimer was able to do is visualize the laws of nature. see that in their own head. i think that is the mark of every genius i've written about. steve jobs had this wonderful visual sense of what it would feel like. and now i'm doing elon musk. he too has an understanding of physical sciences, material sciences, and can visualize things. so that to me was the genius of great innovators of today. all right. coming up, in 2018, the "new

york times" took the unusual step of publishing a revealing op-ed bien a anonymous senior administration official that roiled washington and in-fur greated then president trump. two years later miles taylor who left his position as chief of staff in the department of homeland security made public his authorship of the article. and he joins us with a warning to save democracy from the next trump. we'll be right back. t trump. we'll be right back. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin.

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and served with hot au jus for dipping. try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today. only at togo's. you know we're working on that. you know we had a plan to totally -- it is such a ridiculous situation, isn't it,

but we had a plan and we would have instituted that plan and it was all ready. but if we win, that will be taken care of, that will be one of the easy things we do. >> one of the easy things that they will do. though he has absolutely no idea what it is. again, fascinating when things are talking about joe biden, oh, he lost his mind and then you have donald trump who again just mathers on and on about policy, knows absolutely nothing about it. he knows less about policy than anyone i've served with in congress. and yes, joe biden when he gets tired sometimes he stutters, sometimes he reacheses for words here and there. but on policy, it is not even close. look at -- pull the transcripts of these two guys from press conferences. not a close call. one is cogent and read in on

policy and understands it, the other still talks like a buffoon. >> well, joe, i say something even further than that. it is not clear that trump knows that he is in the proper space time. he is like we're working on that. he obviously doesn't know what the co2 pipeline is. i'm not sure i even know what it is. but he clearly doesn't know what she is talking about. er he clearly is just making crap up. and he says we have a plan for that and outrageous, there is a moment in -- we had it on the show, my friend has a one man show on broadway right now and he has this line that he says the go-to thing if somebody asks you a question and you don't want to sound stupid, just say always can you believe it?

and people are like, oh, yeah, and then they go off on whatever their rant is. that is like trump in that thing. it is like, can you believe it? it is just outrage us why, it is outrageous and the voter says yeah, that's right. and problem is they think yeah, that is our guy. he's working on a plan, he's building that wall. >> it is rough. >> and by the way chris christie, we talk about republicans scared of their own shadow, chris christie actually telling the truth about how little of the wall donald trump built. >> no, definitely on a sort of a mission to make up for all the time that he spent watching the president do this stuff. but at least we'll take it, we'll take the truth whenever you want to give it. back in 2018, the trump administration and the country was turned upside down by an anonymous opinion piece in the "new york times" from an unnamed

senior member of the administration. the op-ed author wrote a group of staffers who were working to keep trump's mourad ral impulses at bay while still governing the country. quote the dilemma, which he does not fully grasp, is that many of the senior officials in his own administration are working diligently from within to frustrate parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations. i would know. i am one of them. the piece continued -- there is a quiet resistance within the administration of people choosing to put country first. but the real difference will be made by everyday citizens rising above politics, reaching across the aisle and resolving to shed the labels in favor of a single one. americans. >> and that author revealed to be former department of homeland security chief of staff miles

taylor. and he is here with a new book, "blowback." thanks so much for being with us. jonathan has the first question. >> so walk us through this. what you are trying to detail here. your op-ed illuminated to the american people the effort that some in the administration were trying to do to stop donald trump's worst impulses. he is not gone. and this book is a warning as to what could come next. >> yeah, and look, no one wants to read another trump retrospective. i'll be the first to say that. by god, the shelves are filled with them. we don't care what trump memoirs are. and no one is painting a picture of how truly devastating it would be to the fabric of our republic to make this mistake again, to put donald trump back in the white house or a copycat. right now when you look at the field, most of the field with a few exceptions are lining up to be trump successor, to be the

maga copycat. for this book, i spent two years interviewing the people closest to trump, his cabinet secretaries, senior republicans in congress to say paint a clear eyed picture for me about would that second maga term will look like and it was not a pretty picture. >> and "new york times" says part of the effort would be to strip down a lot of the government agencies, try to seize control of bureaucrac institutions that by law or tradition were independent from the west wing. how big of a concern is that for you? >> trump and the article in the "new york times," that was just the tip of the iceberg. great reporting from maggie haberman and jonathan swann. this book goes into the play by

play, democratic guard rail by democratic guardrail and the plans to dismantle those guardrails. i'm not a political person. i've never worked on a political campaign in my life. i got started in national security and that is where i work. i thought i'd spend my career focused on terrorist threats. instead of the biggest threat to the national security of the united states right now is donald j. trump and the potential of a savvier successor taking over the maga movement. why? because in these interviews i spoke to, long time public servants, other national security officials, they detailed how the powers of government will be heavily weaponized in a second term. and i was hesitant because i thought people will be this is hyperbolic. and then two to form donald trump announces the theme of his campaign which is i am your retribution. and throughout this book from the defense accident to dhs to the department of education, his

former officials detailed how he wants to with that noise those tools to get after his political adversaries. >> and you write about how the republican base is radical sized and politicians are pandering to that base. department of homeland security, you certainly are familiar with the radicalization among different groups and segments all around the world. do you believe that the politicians now have become radicalized? >> i really regret to say it because again, i can't say the word hyperbolic enough. five years ago you would have heard me saying that on tv and said this guy has lost his mind, he is an extremist. >> or is it for real when it comes to republican officials who are sticking with donald trump? >> there are two things happening. senior officials in washington all the way up to the speaker of the house no better. in private they tell their aides and friends that donald trump and the maga movement are a

threat to the country. in public, they bolster it and continue to champion a twice impeached twice indicted disgraced ex-president and his faulty movement. and in private again they have totally different opinions. that is would not thing. but the public hears something else and it resulted in a radicalized base. again, don't trust me, look at the data. fringe conspiracy theories that just a few years ago were provably false and very few people believed. qanon, "the great replacement" theory, the idea of a stolen election have gone from fringe ideas to being accepted by the majority of republican voters. >> professor, you have the next question. >> so you have detailed very clearly the substance of the danger. what is the stuff of the solution? how do we respond to all of that you have just described?

>> i'll say something really ironic when it comes to me. in the course of writing this through a very long and fraught and painful experience, i concluded that the biggest threat to our democracy is an anonymity. yes, ironic coming from so-called anonymous. but by staying behind a pseudonym, it encouraged others to hide their views. i found out when i unmasked myself that it gave other people to come forward. right now i think the biggest threat is this collective anonymity in the republican party especially in the leadership. the knowledge that trump is dangerous, antithetical to all of the things that we as conservatives wanted to see in the republican party and their refusal to say that out loud in their own names is a threat. how do we counter that, we need more people stepping forward like chris christie is on the campaign to loefr that cost of dissent within the republican party and make it easier for

others to actually speak the truth. >> new book is entitled blowback, a warning to save democracy from the next trump. miles taylor, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. and we have breaking news surrounding donald trump this morning. a federal judge has rejected the former president's request for a new trial in the civil lawsuit brought by e. jean carroll where a jury found trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming the writer and awarded her $5 million in damages in a 59 page decision. u.s. district judge said that the jury did not reach a seriously erroneously result and the may 9 verdict was not a miscarriage of justice. another blow to trump world. coming up on "morning joe" after a nearly three months at sea, a stranded sailor and his

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if you can imagine a sailor and his dog have been rescued after being stranded for three months in the pacific ocean. the 54-year-old australian man is back on land and now talking about his story and the miracle rescue. miguel almaguer has the details. >> reporter: a warm embrace for the team who saved him. this morning tim shaddock is the sea weary castaway sharing his story of survival with the world. >> when you get saved, you feel

like you want to live. so i'm very grateful. >> reporter: after being lost at sea for nearly three months, the sydney sailor in-debted to the fishermen who plucked him out of the ocean. >> i'm alive. and i really didn't think that i'd make it. >> reporter: discovered some 1300 miles off mexico's west coast, shaddock who was stranded with his new dog, bella, was reeled in by a tuna troller. and they survived by drinking rainwater and eating raw fish. >> a lot of tuna, sushi. i'm very skinny. >> reporter: just weeks in to their three month voyage, shaddock says that storm wiped

out all the electronics aboard their catamaran. holding on to each other, they survived against the odds. >> she is a beautiful animal. i'm just grateful she's alive. she's a lot braver than i am. >> reporter: and the two drifted for months. never knowing if a lifeline would come. >> i would try to find the happiness inside myself, you know. things get tough out there. you know, you have to survive. >> reporter: this morning the castaway back on land, but saying that he will never give up new adventures at sea. >> wow. and miguel almaguer with that report. and coming up, legendary singer, songwriter and founding member of the funk band war, lonnie jordan is our guest for the big anniversary of the group's most famous album. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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from new york to dublin to l.a., you are listening to the song the world is a ghetto by the legendary group war. it is part of an album of the same name that became the top seller of 1973. and in the 50 years since then,

war has become an integral part of american culture. and joining us now, co-founding member and principal vocalist, lonnie jordan. so great to have you on the show. john heilemann, why don't you take the first question. >> great to see you from a distance. i want to take these viewers back to -- that are watching the show right now back to the era 50 years ago when war is a ghetto came out. you are talking about a time when radio and america was largely segregated, it was very hard for a funk ability to cross over and become the number one album on the pop charts. but you came on with this album in 1972. what was it about war that allowed you guys to break out and you a socially conscious

record, only six songs on this album and have it go to number one on the pop charts. >> we're lucky to get six songs on there because we weren't really that knowledgeable about making music. we were young, dumb and full of fun at the time. and all we were doing was just going into the studio, making records. we didn't know anything about studio. we were just having fun. we never thought our music would ever get played on the radio. so what you are talking about as far as the issues that was going on back in the day, we weren't familiar with that. we didn't know that was going on. we just played music. >> so not only did you get it done, but this music has persevered, it has had such staying power. such an integral part of the american culture, part of the fabric, the sound track. as you reflect back on those 50 years, what is that like -- what

does that mean to you that the songs are so meaningful to everyone else? >> first of all, we were called the universal street band. everything that we did was a reflection of the people. we were just like a mirror looking at them and them looking at us. they put us here and they can take us out. talking about the roll and roll hall of fans. and back then, all the music that we recorded was actually from the people. the fans. we just picked up a pencil and pretty much we all joined in together. we collaborated with the people. it is all about the fans, you know. and all we did was turn the tape on and gave people information about where they haven't been and like where no man has gone before. >> and eddie has the next question. >> and so i am a huge fan. this album was so central to my childhood and to my college

days. the b side to cisco kid, the 45, was beatles and the bog which was my track. i want to understand this sound, this long beach sound, lush horns, the baselines. give us a sense of the nature of the music. you've got this collective, but talk about the creative process a bit. >> well, everyone in the wand brought to the table their own style, their own personal style of music. and by the way, not everybody is from long beach. myself and the guitar player were from compton. long beach and compton are next door to each other anyway, but a lot of people don't want to people compton in the mix with us. we were straight into compton, not out, straight in. and that was us. we were the first band to come out of compton back in the day. but musically-wise, we just

turned the tape on. jerry goldstein our producer then and now, my partner in crime, but all we did was turn the tape on and we were probably the first jam band. that is how we created our music. and because we didn't know how to read music, we didn't know all the -- all the technology back then which is not like it is today. but like i said, all we had was just turn the tape on and if you turn it off, we'll still be jamming. and you may miss about many 15 minutes worth of what may be the best. you cannot turn the tape off with us. and most of our music, we also create while we're performing on stage live. and we bring the people in with us and they help us create music. so it was a collaboration. in fact we're collaborating now.

>> yes, we are, extemporaneously. but it sounds like a mix of talent and just unbounding joy. lonnie jordan, reflecting on the 50 year anniversary of the album, the world is a ghetto, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. and that does it for us this morning. anna cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. fter a quick final break. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. ♪ with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world

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right now, is a third indictment imminent for donald trump? new revelations today about the special counsel's election interference probe as the former president lashes out after learning that he is a target in that investigation. >> what they are doing like with the department of justice, they totally weaponized it. like we never had this before. >> plus 16 michigan